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Old 12-22-2012, 11:44 AM
Don Don is offline
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Default Sandy Hook & Other Mass Shootings

Following the Sandy Hook Shooting coverage, something hit me: THERE ARE NO WOUNDED AT SANDY HOOK. ALL VICTIMS ARE REPORTED DEAD. THE SANDY HOOK SHOOTER ACHIEVED A 100% MORTALITY RATE. By comparison, in all other mass shootings there were more wounded than dead.

It also appears that all the eye witnesses who actually saw him or any of the killings have been eliminated as well. All persons interviewed in the media only "heard gunfire" and did not actually see the shooter or the shootings.


Briefly, the overview is as follows:

Sandy Hook School (2012)
Shot: 26
Killed: 26 (100%)
Wounded -0-


Aurora Theater Shooting (2012)
Shot: 71
Killed: 12 (16.9%)
Wounded: 59 (83.1%)


Tucson AZ Shooting (2011)
Shot: 14
Killed: 6 (42.8%)
Wounded: 8 (57.1%)


Columbine School Shooting (1999)
Shot: 33
Killed: 12 (36%)
Wounded: 21 (63.6%)


Stockton School Shooting (1989)
Shot: 35
Killed: 5 (14.2%)
Wounded: 30 (85.7%)


Note that the 26 victims included 20 children and 6 adults. Even if children, because of their small size, are more vulnerable to gunshot wounds, based on the statistical history of other mass shootings at least half of the 6 adult victims should have survived. None did.

Perhaps the most similar mass shooting is the infamous Columbine School event in Colorado in 1999, where two students, armed with multiple fire arms and many bombs and acting according to a long worked out plan, shot 33 classmates but still achieved only a 36% fatality rate and produced twice as many wounded as dead.

Sandy Hook is statistically out of line with all other mass shootings, where the wounded exceeded the dead, and much of the information being published would only have been known to people who are now shown to have been killed and could not have reported it.

The .223 used in this incident is not a death ray, but is identical to the weapon used in the Aurora Theater shooting which resulted in 5 wounded for every victim killed. The .223 is a reliable killer on jackrabbits and ground squirrels but is marginal on coyotes and is not legal for hunting deer.

There is another weird aspect of Sandy Hook: NO SECURITY CAMERA VIDEO HAS BEEN PRODUCED.

The school district's web site posted it's policies on security cameras and promulgated a retention period of 5 days. The only other mass killing incident I've heard of where security camera footage was NOT produced was the Pentagon on 9/11. Joe Schmoe's Liquor Store has security cam's but not the Pentagon or the Sandy Hook School!

Last edited by Don; 12-22-2012 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:54 PM
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Ayatollahgondola Ayatollahgondola is offline
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Well, that might be noteworthy, but then again, I thought I read that the kids in Sandy Hook were shot more than once each, which would contribute heavily to the mortality factor. Plus they are unskilled in manuevering away from the danger, and trapped in a smaller, more confined space.

I doubt we have all the information that the investigation has too. They may not even be required to divulge it in that state

Last edited by Ayatollahgondola; 12-22-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:08 PM
Don Don is offline
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St. Valentine's Day Massacre 1929.

In this famous 1929 mass shooting, the Capone gang tried to wipe out the Moran Gang and shot 7 men in a garage, all lined up against a wall and offering no resistance.

Two professional killers using Thompson .45 caliber submachine guns fired 100 rounds into the seven stationary victims, sweeping their guns back and forth Notwithstanding this hail of automatic weapons fire, one victim survived 14 gunshot wounds and was transported to a hospital where he regained consciousness and was questioned by the police only to expire later in the day.

Bottom line: It is not easy to achieve a 100 % fatality rate in mass shootings, notwithstanding multiple hits from two professional shooters using machine guns.

Separate and apart from achieving a 100% fatality rate at Sandy Hook, all of the eye witnesses appear to have been eliminated as well. How convenient.

How amazing that a reclusive, psychologically disturbed 20 year old was single handedly able to achieve a feat unmatched by two professional killers using superior weapons and assisted by accomplices on a smaller number of victims. It must have been the video games.

Last edited by Don; 12-22-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:23 PM
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Ayatollahgondola Ayatollahgondola is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don View Post
St. Valentine's Day Massacre 1929.

In this famous 1929 mass shooting, the Capone gang tried to wipe out the Moran Gang and shot 7 men in a garage, all lined up against a wall and offering no resistance.

Two professional killers using Thompson .45 caliber submachine guns fired 100 rounds into the seven stationary victims, sweeping their guns back and forth Notwithstanding this hail of automatic weapons fire, one victim survived 14 gunshot wounds and was transported to a hospital where he regained consciousness and was questioned by the police only to expire later in the day.

Bottom line: It is not easy to achieve a 100 % fatality rate in mass shootings, notwithstanding multiple hits from two professional shooters using machine guns.

Separate and apart from achieving a 100% fatality rate at Sandy Hook, all of the eye witnesses appear to have been eliminated as well. How convenient.

How amazing that a reclusive, psychologically disturbed 20 year old was single handedly able to achieve a feat unmatched by two professional killers using superior weapons and assisted by accomplices on a smaller number of victims. It must have been the video games.
I'll admit the statisitcs are odd, and the absence of witnesses is unusual given the number of people in the area. I'd be hesitant to agree that the machine-gunners were professional killers. That's often a term used by prosecutors to obtain the death penalty. A real professional killer is someone who administers the lethal injection, or otherwise carried out death penalty punishment. From there, a professional gets a bit sketchy. Someone who has to use an automatic to kill 7 detained men is more of a hatchet man or men.
But once again, it is odd that there were no survivors that were wounded. actually very odd. Not entirely incomprehensible though. I gotta wonder if there's something the press isn't being told yet, such as the rounds containing poison.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:28 PM
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Update to my original post regarding the apparent killing of all eye witnesses and the absence of any wounded victims:

Two percipient witnesses, including one who sustained gunshot wounds, who saw the shooter have appeared.

(1) A Sandy Hook School staffer named Natalie Hammond was with the Principal and School Psychologist when the three of them were confronted by the shooter who opened up killing the other two and wounding Natalie Hammond in the hand, leg and foot. She crawled into an adjacent room and survived.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...r-played-dead/

(2) The second percipient, but uninjured, witness was an as yet unnamed 6 year old girl who "played dead" while here class mates were shot to death. Presumably she had her eyes closed while "playing dead", but she would most certainly have seen the shooter burst into the room.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...r-played-dead/

This still amounts to a fatality rate of approximately 92%...higher than any other known mass shooting. Thus far the two reported surviving eye witnesses have confirmed reports of a single shooter.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:13 AM
wetibbe wetibbe is offline
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Default Prelude;

Yes I did hear that there were wounded survivors. But the media, typically in the rush to out do and report, also produced other erroneous information. Often they are running on speculation, fragments and sometimes just plain false stuff.

But backing up:

I received an E-mail from a friend to the effect that there was a report that the shooters Mother was actually a CIA operative. She did own an AR15 as well as at least two Glock 9's. The Glock's have a horrendous capability to spew out jaw dropping volumes of rounds. There are astonishing videos on U Tube. It isn't unusual for women to own guns and both hunt and shoot at the range but to own an AR15 as well as two Glock 9''s ???? Normally the ladies seem to prefer a Smith and Wesson PINK six shooter revolver. It seems the Mother was an enthusiastic practitioner at the gun ranges. It isn't difficult to figure out where the shooter acquired his shooting skills as well as his weapons.

I own lots of guns. I keep then in a locked gun locker. Same for my son. How did the shooter acquire his Mom's guns ?

I hear that the shootings occurred primarily in TWO class rooms. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. The ultra high volumes of fire and multiple wounds could account for the high mortality as opposed to possible other circumstances in the other shootings.

As to the AR15 coming in .223 caliber and being "marginal for coyotes, the latest issue of the NRA American Hunter Magazine contains an article by an avid coyote hunter who evaluated 9 calibers for the firearm. The AR15 actually has been manufactured to shoot many calibers ranging from .17 to .25. The .17 is particularly lethal because it has a projectile of 4,00o fps in 30 grain bullets. All of the calibers are good coyote rounds. Some better than others.

The article goes on to say that the .17 caliber leaves a very small entrance wound channel and that it usually does not come out the other side. That means the energy dump is all inside. For fur gatherers that is attractive because it doesn't cause much pelt damage. There is the matter of 'hydraulic shock" too. U Tube videos of shooting a water melon vividly demonstrate the explosive results. So the internal damage to a live target would essentially turn the insides into mush. The article says coyotes drop like a rock in their tracks with some calibers. However, some other calibers like the .222 have resulted in the coyotes limping off and being lost. So the criteria is first caliber and the grains of bullet weight and velocity. Further, according to the author, fast follow up shots are also a plus. So shooting the kids would be like spraying them with a garden hose.

Wayne La Pierre advocated armed guards in every school. I agree entirely just like I promoted the arming of airline pilots and sky marshal's. Sadly the liberals and gun opponents remain deaf dumb and stupid about protecting the schools. Those schools are sitting ducks and the would be shooters know it. Some deterrent will give pause for thought. There are lots of other ways to improve security, locked doors, bars on windows, controlled access. Look at what it takes now to board an airplane. But why rail, rant and rave. The gun controllers are too stupid to comprehend.

* What about the Nickel Mines Amish school shooting in Pennsylvania. The shooter killed 5 in a one room school and wounded 4. He used a Springfield XD 9mm subcompact hand gun. Not much of a weapon for mass killing.

Last edited by wetibbe; 12-23-2012 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:49 AM
Rim05 Rim05 is offline
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I cannot agree with having guns in schools, manned by any person. What is to say that person/persons will not have one of those moments of insanity?
I own guns and they have always been safe and not a threat to any one.

That said, I wish there could be a ban on all assault weapons and the high number of bullets in those high number clips. Seems to me , the only ones who should have those guns should be LEO and the BP. Of course the battle field needs them.l

Last edited by Rim05; 12-23-2012 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:30 AM
Don Don is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rim05 View Post
I cannot agree with having guns in schools, manned by any person. What is to say that person/persons will not have one of those moments of insanity?
I own guns and they have always been safe and not a threat to any one.

That said, I wish there could be a ban on all assault weapons and the high number of bullets in those hight number clips. Seems to me , the only ones who should have those guns should be LEO and the BP. Of course the battle field needs them.l
NO guns in schools? Until very recently high school ROTC units all had guns in schools. I was captain of my ROTC rifle team. We had .22 Rem Target Rifles and M-1's and M-1 Carbines in the armory and every cadet was trained in handling, stripping and maintaining the M-1.

I have never done a study of crimes by ROTC personnel, but I have never heard of any. When I was in high school the problem was violence associated with football games with other schools and the ROTC people were never involved in that.

As for "assault weapons" if our presidents are claiming the right to have us killed as "terrorists" without charges, trials, or any other notice or due process, I want to be equally as well armed as the people that the President may send to kill me if he decides to designate me that way.



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Old 12-23-2012, 06:37 AM
Don Don is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wetibbe View Post
Y
* What about the Nickel Mines Amish school shooting in Pennsylvania. The shooter killed 5 in a one room school and wounded 4. He used a Springfield XD 9mm subcompact hand gun. Not much of a weapon for mass killing.
I remember hearing about this Amish school shooting. According to your info, he shot 9, killed 5 and wounded 4. More than 50% mortality but far short of the 93% of Sandy Hook.

The CIA angle always comes up. Who knows? I have always suspected that many of these mass shootings were false flag ops designed to influence public opinion against gun ownership, especially Sandy Hook with such a high mortality rate and the apparent elimination of all eye wit's. Now we have two eye wit's and it turns out one person was wounded. As a shooter, it bugs me that 26 people were killed but that the one wounded survivor, shot at point blank range, was shot in the hand, the foot and the leg. Clearly peripheral wounds. How do you miss at the close range he was shooting?

Much of the real truth will never be known because this is being used for political purposes.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:52 AM
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Ayatollahgondola Ayatollahgondola is offline
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The one survivor shot in the hand, foot, leg, may have been on the move....evading. The kids were anchored to their classrooms like sitting ducks. I'll bet that many of those kids have similarly placed entry wounds, but that their small bodies just bled out faster. this shooter was just plain evil in this act. How he got that way is still a matter for investigation, but whatever did possess him to carry this out was surely evil in origin.

I grew up with a kid that was quite different from most of the rest of us. He was a rebellious, larcenous, bold delinquent. Always at the root of others in his follow in destroying property. Schools too. Also destroyed a local tv station to the tune of 200K. He challenged one of his sidewalk commando henchkids to shoot a cigarette from his hand. Did I say challenged? Damn near forced him by goad and threat. He ended up with a 22 projectile going through his hand, leaving him in a cast for several months whith his finger like it was flipping the bird at everyone. He wore it as a medal through school.
12 years after high school he fired a shotgun at several people in the park, seeing them as some sort of demons that were a threat to him. He was tried and sentenced to 10 years in the state prison hospital, and has been denied release every year since, as late as this one. 25 years as a person too much a threat to release. This kid was a product of the 50's and 60's like me
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