Shawna Forde trial

[Bear Flag Republican]

I want to write to this woman. She deserves to have people show support for her through her time in jail. Even if she HAD pulled the trigger, which was never alleged, she would have been in the right.

This is an invasion.
You don't win a war by lying down and being loving.

[Ayatollahgondola]

Originally Posted by Bear Flag Republican

I want to write to this woman. She deserves to have people show support for her through her time in jail. Even if she HAD pulled the trigger, which was never alleged, she would have been in the right.

This is an invasion.
You don't win a war by lying down and being loving.

We don't have a declared war, so this is still just your average crime. Well; maybe unaverage crime. Orchestrating a home invasion, or just participating in one is still a crime, and that your sloppy, careless planning resulted in the death of a kid is not really something that can be supported because your overall goal was just. I condemned the assault at WACO by ATF much on the same grounds, as did I in a case in Modesto where a 12 year old was shot to death accidently during a raid by narcotics officers with assault teams. A smart and considerate planner would have timed their assaults so as to protect the innocent. In Modesto, the cops were watching the house for months, and should have busted the place after sending free tickets to a movie for 12 and under to that address good on that night only. Yes; that's a simplistic suggestion for me to make from afar, but these are supposed to be educated, intelligent, evidence gathering agents, so I'm quite convinced that they could have orchestrated something better than "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle", on the night of the raid. That goes double for Janet Reno's crew.
Shawna Ford was an idiot though. Maybe she had some altruistic goals, but who of us does not when it comes to protecting our country? What she had in spirit, she lacked ten fold in training, support, intelligence, and of course, authorization. Without that last one, you are just a rogue mercenary if you cling to the claim of freedom fighter, and a murderous criminal if your goals are anything else. I shudder to think of what passed for planning in this event. A pair of binoculars and word of mouth probably, and when you examine the quality of her peers in that caper, there's no wonder that the raid turned out so horribly. It's hard to justify by using any measure. We certainly cannot accept one death of an innocent 12 year old per each drug dealer or even two, as reasonably necessary to stop crime. We'd be condemned by every other country with the exception of a few.
I'd have had a lot more respect for what she did if she had first either declared war on this family, or at least garnered support for her effort within the larger audience of people within the movement. What real good comes from one or more roving bands of self declared freedom fighters if they are directed solely by their own desires? Sure we want the border secured, crime stopped, our country protected. But we need to do so using popular sentiment. We're not going to gain that using people like her, employing tactics like hers.

[Bear Flag Republican]

Originally Posted by Ayatollahgondola

We don't have a declared war, so this is still just your average crime.

It's been declared, the war is just not recognized by governmental organizations. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's right to do what was done.
BUT ... a paramilitary organization that had a lot of recruits, formed of radical civillians who cared about the issues, once there IS something that pisses off the masses too much for our governments to ignore, could be very effective, moreso than the regular military. The recent history in the Balkans shows that.


check out this serbian football team.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOAz_IOmNgk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkan%27s_Tigers

[Bear Flag Republican]

And that said, I still want to write to her.
It's lonely in jail, and for all we know, she's another victim of the system.
Indeed, I have a friend who knows more than I do, and from what he's told me she told him in some panicked phonecall prior to her arrest, I would say, I want to write to her.
That's that.

The incidents that occured were not morally justified, but neither is scapegoating a woman as a "mastermind" in order to convince women not to join our struggle, which is, I believe, their machiavellian aspiration.

We need to define our own paradigm:
We don't shun people for going to jail.

[Ayatollahgondola]

Originally Posted by Bear Flag Republican

BUT ... a paramilitary organization that had a lot of recruits, formed of radical civillians who cared about the issues, once there IS something that pisses off the masses too much for our governments to ignore, could be very effective, moreso than the regular military. The recent history in the Balkans shows that.

Well, that's what I meant by getting some support from your peers. She and her gang acted pretty much alone...without any authorization. A popular uprising differs from a small gang acting alone and unto themselves

[Bear Flag Republican]

Originally Posted by Ayatollahgondola

Well, that's what I meant by getting some support from your peers. She and her gang acted pretty much alone...without any authorization. A popular uprising differs from a small gang acting alone and unto themselves

During the border campaign, the Official IRA splintered from the regulars with only ten members from the Original group which had won Independence.
There IS a military history parallel for that kind of thing. However ... it's one of those facts, you're not a rebel until you learn how to evade capture. A criminal is a bad boy who likes to get caught, a political rebel is an effective soldier who refuses to.

[ilbegone]

Originally Posted by Bear Flag Republican

... Even if she HAD pulled the trigger, which was never alleged, she would have been in the right...

How would she have been in the right by being the shooter?

[Bear Flag Republican]

Originally Posted by ilbegone

How would she have been in the right by being the shooter?

Do you acknowledge that there is an unseen war which costs Americans their lives on a regular basis, and our government is not acknowledging it as such?

[Ayatollahgondola]

Originally Posted by Bear Flag Republican

Do you acknowledge that there is an unseen war which costs Americans their lives on a regular basis, and our government is not acknowledging it as such?

It's not unseen; maybe it's unreported though. The goal of security will not be won with emissaries like her and her associates. They did a half-assed, botched, and completely useless job. I'd challenge you to show me where she did something good here. Everyone wants something done about securing the border, and we'd all like to do something effective; however, when you pull out all the stops, you usually give your opposition more political ammunition to condemn you in the larger audience. People around us have been at this for decades. They've learned that charging in like a raging bull doesn't work. Winning over the public and encouraging them to support a war on the likes of mexico and their regional government proponents will not happen using Forde's tactics, and certainly not with those results.

[Bear Flag Republican]

Originally Posted by Ayatollahgondola

It's not unseen; maybe it's unreported though. The goal of security will not be won with emissaries like her and her associates. They did a half-assed, botched, and completely useless job. I'd challenge you to show me where she did something good here. Everyone wants something done about securing the border, and we'd all like to do something effective; however, when you pull out all the stops, you usually give your opposition more political ammunition to condemn you in the larger audience. People around us have been at this for decades. They've learned that charging in like a raging bull doesn't work. Winning over the public and encouraging them to support a war on the likes of mexico and their regional government proponents will not happen using Forde's tactics, and certainly not with those results.

100% agreed.
We have to fight to win, and unfortunately, you can't fight fair with dirty fighters. I just want to clarify the difference between moral right, which may have existed, according to someone I know who interviewed her, and legal or tactical right, which well, the absence is self-evident. unfortunately, it's a very big difference.