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  #11  
Old 08-08-2012, 04:13 PM
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Jeanfromfillmore Jeanfromfillmore is offline
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Don't you think it's time that minorities stop using the expression "My people"? Just that expression is taken so differently depending on who is saying it.
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2012, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeanfromfillmore View Post
Don't you think it's time that minorities stop using the expression "My people"? Just that expression is taken so differently depending on who is saying it.
Yes, everyone from the National Socialist Movement to the National Council of La Raza to the Rainbow Coalition needs to knock off the "My people / Mi gente" race obsession.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:02 PM
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There are several directions I would like to go with this.

One is to better understand the historical functions of the democrat and republican parties. While the democrat party in the south was pro slavery and anti civil rights (It also seems to me as a generalization that the south was/is somewhat hostile to Catholics and Jews), it seems that in the northern cities the democrat party was ran by political machines which catered to immigrants in order to gather and maintain power (exchanging benefits for votes while turning embezzlement into an art form and enriching themselves with inside deals).

It also seems that 19th century political affiliation in the north had much to do with religion, protestants and Jews tended to be republican and Catholics tended to be democrat.

And what happened to the southern Anglican / Episcopalians of the late 18th and early 19th centuries who had so many differences with northern Puritans - differences which eventually became part of the Civil War? It seems to me that the south is now mainly Baptist and Pentecostal today. And there is still considerable difference between the north and south in many ways.

I'd also like to delve into the differences between Anglo American expansion and Spanish conquest which made the subsequently independent nations either successful or failures, not least the treatment of Indian populations - and that is not to suggest that the was one more or less humane than the other. What were the true causes of the 1660's King Phillip's war and did that, along with French and British wartime proclivity to use Indians as frontier surrogates contribute to American regard of Indians during the 19th century? And how about Indian empires continually at war with one another and nomadic bands of Indians constantly scrapping over territory? Witness the Aztec and Inca expansions or the Comanche from Wyoming pushing Apaches out of Texas as small examples of ongoing inter-tribal warfare and extermination between the polar zones.

And how does the failure of the attempt to turn Wisconsin into a German Province contrast or compare with the temporarily successful 1970's La Raza Unida takeover of Crystal City and Zavala County, Texas (engineered by Jose Angel Gutierrez)? The "Cristal Experiment", as racist ethnics studies professor Armando Navarro calls it, is the the current model for ethnic nationalist takeover of government, and it essentially turned Zavala county into a socialist, taxpayer funded ethnic commune. Or did it merely turn one racist pecking order upside down into another racist pecking order? The first thing Gutierrez did was fire or force out white employees of the two local governments and the school system and sought to pack law enforcement and the courts with "his people".

This all interests me and is relevant to the true understanding of how today is yesterday unfolded and the future yet unrevealed.

Otherwise, all we have is the old arguments buried in selective half truths that all whites have ever done in the Americas is to racially oppress others or that all Latinos are culturally backwards, congenital criminals - essentially everyone white and everyone brown is one or the other of two very evil persons, past and present.

Racists need racial hatred.
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SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

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Last edited by ilbegone; 08-10-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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  #14  
Old 08-11-2012, 03:03 AM
wetibbe wetibbe is offline
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Default Homo Sapiens

Man is a product of heredity and environment.

Before 1950, Before the IRA, before Hitler and the Aryans, before Stalin and Bolsheviks and Marxists, before WW1, before the Civil War, Napoleon Bonaparte, before The Reformation, before the Pilgrims and Plymouth rock, before Columbus, before Christianity, before Moses, before the Vikings, before Genghis Khan and the China Dynasties, before Japan and the Ninjas, before Moors in Spain, before the Ecuadorean headshrinkers, before then there were indigenous homo sapiens waring, plundering, killing, invading territories, stealing women, goods, assets...........

Before there were Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons.
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2012, 08:59 AM
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I have been looking into the Irish in America centering around Five Points in New York, (the setting of the film Gangs of New York which seems to have the agenda of turning a multifaceted history into modern judgment of American nativists discriminating against immigrants, think of turning a complex Einstein equation into the old second grade counting man with the digits of his hands representing 1s, 10s, and 100s.The film is considered as a documentary by many straw clutching Latino activists and their followers).

While there are general parallels with the current influx from south of the border, there are some differences too.

This is, again, simplified and condensed to my understanding.

The Irish Potato famine was a terrible thing indeed - people did starve to death and die from diseases on a massive scale, and many were too weak or didn't have seed potatoes to plant when the potato fungus spent itself. - and those people were already impoverished due to overpopulation and land rent rising to meet the demand before the famine. Some British landlords were more humane than others and attempted to feed their tenants during the crisis, but it became more economical to offer to pay for passage to Canada and the United States.

From descriptions of Irish who survived the voyage disembarking in the new world, I am reminded of pictures of newly freed WWII concentration camp inmates. The largest parallel I can draw to Mexico concerning migration to America is the senseless killing and other hardships placed on Mexicans during the Revolution, with Chihuahuan (the area I'm most familiar with revolutionary history) civilians placed in an impossibly terrible situation towards the end. Starvation does not seem to be a problem in Mexico during the last 60 years, the motivation seems to be for money and a version of materialism.

Wages were low and living conditions in five points were terrible, but there is quite a bit of evidence that many managed to save money and send remittances to relatives in Ireland, some of which financed further movement.

Political power in five points was derived from Patronage. Saloon keepers and grocers were the most well known (and could persuade in many ways, including holding back on needed items if the customer didn't have the "proper" views but promising jobs if elected) and when elected to political positions had their supporters hired into city jobs, such as the fire department, Police, and city maintenance. City employment was a vital stepping stone for political advancement. Except for very few examples, those of the Irish who were successful with politics were born in the US or were brought too young to remember Ireland.

To be hired into city service required delivering the vote of either a tenement or maybe an entire block. They had to be street fighters who were also used to back down political opposition at the polls and otherwise. Lots of political gang fights.

City officials would intercede in criminal charges concerning their faithful, and on occasion put out a form of public assistance to loyal voters.

Again, a lot of this seems to boil down to religion. Protestants tended to be Whigs (a "liberal" leftover from the Puritan part of England), Catholics tended to be Democrat, very loosely an heir to Colonial and English civil war Tories (reactionary conservatives) ("liberal" and "conservative" might have somewhat different meanings in 19th century America, as they did in 19th century Mexico where "Conservative might have been "royalist" and "liberal" might have meant "anti-royalist").

The 1842 riot seems to have been over tiff about protestant monopoly of education, which painted Catholicism in an unfavorable light.

In fact, in what is again a 17th century leftover from the English Civil war concerning Puritan England and Pro Catholic English King Charles I, Irish immigration was seen by quite a few Americans as a Vatican plot to undermine the US government and impose Catholicism in America. As well, there were long simmering resentments of the English protestant subjugation of Ireland. Immigrant Germans and immigrant Jews of Five Points (or German immigrants at large in America attempting to resist assimilation) didn't seem to inspire the friction that is evident between descendents of English settlers and Irish immigrants - this was a centuries old inherited religious fight originating in the British isles carried over to 19th century America, not at all about modern white Americans discrimination (hyped or not) against Mexican migrants and their descendants as Gangs of New York indirectly implies.

I believe by the 1850's descendants of Irish immigrants completely took over Tammany Hall and wielded the political machine with impunity. Once again, faithful soldiers were rewarded with steady public jobs and were expected to violently support the puppeteers to political ends ("vote right or get a busted head" and physically driving off opposition), those who voted "right" were tossed some carrots, ballot boxes were stuffed ("what do I care when I count the votes"), and the machine used the police and courts to reward supporters and punish opposition. The puppeteers themselves grew wealthy by embezzlement and inside deals.

And the machine was of the Democrat party, the party of 19th century slavery and pre-1960 segregation.
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Old journeyman commenting on young apprentices - "Think about it, these are their old days"

SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

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Last edited by ilbegone; 08-12-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:51 AM
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Default Is there a point ?

Apart from being some interesting history, is this supposed to be going somewhere relevant to current events?
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  #17  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:26 AM
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Apart from being some interesting history, is this supposed to be going somewhere relevant to current events?
Yes.

While it is futile to argue with brown supremacists, precisely because the brown racist aim is to distract from illegal immigration by turning the issue from illegal presence to that of white racism - seeking to both to inflict white guilt and sympathy to their cause. As well, in a whole catalog of half truths and whole lies they propagandize the past, with quite a bit of comparing themselves (descendants of immigrants from Latin America) and the modern influx to many things in the distant past. Among those is the general Irish immigration of the 19th century.

There is also the American brown racist denunciation of the American yesteryear as though the past is going on today, but the political party which grovels before them and which they are attempting to dominate was mostly a racially oppressive and imperialistic entity until the 1960's. You can't shout about the racism of Jim Crow without denouncing the Democrat party, because both were products of one another.

While it might not be productive to engage in a shout down, brown supremacists lose their power when the truth comes out and their slants and outright fabrications as well as their lies by omission are exposed.

1) "They come to feed their families".

I don't recall seeing any Mexicans fresh over the border who appear to be underfed. There are the trash pickers of Mexico City and Tijuana and undoubtedly there are some who would be in dire straights if it were not for remittances, but on the whole they have access to food in Mexico. They come for the cash not available in Mexico for materialism and the Mexican Government uses migration as a pressure valve for social issues and to distract from governmental reform. There are lots of jobs available in Mexico, but there are few wages beyond subsistence.

The Irish were genuinely starving.

2) "19th century Irish immigration experiences are proof of white racism against Latinos in the late 20th and 21st centuries".

The Irish were white English speakers, White German Speakers and foreign language Jews from Western and Eastern Europe didn't have the same rub with English descended Americans as Irish migration did. There were historical reasons for this, such as the 200 year split between the Roman faith, King Henry VIII Anglicism, and northern European Protestantism (which was drowned in blood on all sides) as well as all the truly tragic Irish and English blood drenching Ireland for about five hundred previous years to the Potato famine.

Nothing in history between Anglo America of yesteryear or multi racial America of today and Latin America in any century can even begin to compare with the history of the British Isles transplanted to and somewhat continued in America.

3) 19th century Irish, German, Jews, and modern Latin Americans resist(ed) assimilation. Subsequent generations of descendants of those people might pretend to still be their ancestors, but it is inevitable that some assimilation occurs. Many of modern migrants from Latin America are here to take advantage of American largesse rather than to become American, and their numbers and an institutional change among the government and education demands that they stay separate rather than assimilate.

4) Those who could do so among Irish immigrants sent remittances. Some among the American born and those brought very young became politically active with corrupt political institutions. The immigrants themselves appear to have been generally politically apathetic. There are parallels here.

5) There was overwhelming alcoholism and substantial violence and crime among themselves within what would now be termed "the Irish community". There is the obvious parallel in "the Latino community". However, you just don't see the genuinely terrible destitution among the new migration as was the experience of the former. As terrible as it is, Duroville in the Coachella Valley is a heavenly paradise compared to 19th century Five Points in New York. As well, who has seen any driving genuinely delapidated vehicles in the style of the Cesar Chavez days?

6) Both migrations were/are largely composed of the uneducated and unskilled.

7) The first of what could be called a welfare outreach was instituted within Five Points by a Protestant cause (Peese?). There was no cash or other off premises assistance and was largely composed of being cleaned up, dried out (sobered up), clothed and fed while learning an occupation. Some Irish Catholics opposed it because it was a protestant effort. Boss Tweed of Tammany Hall, himself having grown up in Five points, instituted the first government handout both as a Catholic response to the protestant effort as well as cynically farming votes. Tammany Hall was a corrupt Democrat political machine, and is the origin of the fact that California, with 12% of the US population, has 33% of the national welfare burden and LA county (California's ultimate expression of Aztlan), with 26% of the California population, has 39% of California welfare cases. California is a vote pandering, corrupt democrat refuge using modern migration and ethnic nationalism to gain political power.


Tammany Hall, the Democrat Party, La Raza Unida take over of local government and education system in Texas, etc, etc. Lots of parallels and important differences in the very different migrations, but both are much, much more complex than "Anglo Sajon racism" or the notion that everyone in a somewhat defined group are all the same person.

This thread is sort of an out loud personal exploration of the truth. Some of it goes back to determining just who is the ultimate enemy and who is the unwitting tool - the person in front of your face or the one in the cloaked background pulling the strings?
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SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

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Last edited by ilbegone; 08-13-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-15-2012, 07:33 AM
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Within modern concerns of voter fraud, examples of which include the middle 1990's Congressional race between Loretta Sanchez (bitterly complaining in very bad Spanish on video in the last year or so that Orange County "Asians" were trying to take her "Latino congressional seat") and Bob Dornan. There was a great uptick with groups attached to the Democrat party in registering voters with the result that some groups registered people who weren't citizens.

One such group, Nativo Lopez's Hermandad Mexicana Nacional (Mexican Citizen Brotherhood) improperly registered over 600 people who were not eligible to vote. There were allegations that while the normal error is between 1-4%, HMN's rate was 60%. Then California Secretary of State Bill Jones said "Whether the district attorney is able to prove intent or not, the fact remains that hundreds of individuals are illegally registered to vote, and that is unacceptable." There was said to be a significant drop in Orange County democrats due to a post election registration purge. Sanchez may have been elected in that very narrow race with election fraud.

There has been a plethora of attempts to extend voting rights to people who are not legal residents (or use their presence to an ethnic nationalist end) from San Bernardino Unified School District Board of Education's resident racial lunatics Teresa Parra and Gil Navarro (likes to invoke Pancho Villa as a boogeyman for "Nativists") for direct vote by the illegally present to "community control" lawsuits by Lulac to replace at large elections with neighborhood districts which may not have a large amount of residents eligible to vote and where a great minority of race baiters might run "the community show".

Democrat voter fraud and "community control" began with the 19th century "Irish immigrant community". It is astounding the way the Democrat party in New York turned voter fraud into a brazen, weaselly art form. I'll continue next post.
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"A nickel will get you on the subway, but garlic will get you a seat." - Old New York Yiddish Saying

"You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra

Old journeyman commenting on young apprentices - "Think about it, these are their old days"

SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Never, ever, wear a bright colored shirt to a stand up comedy show.


Last edited by ilbegone; 08-15-2012 at 07:48 AM.
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2012, 06:26 AM
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I found a very cheap $3.50 plus shipping), used version of one of of racist ethnic studies professor Armando Navarro's books (peddling race enmity at the university must not pay all the bills - new retails around $60.00).

While I have read a first hand account in a book by Jose Angel Gutierrez of the events surrounding the take over of the school district and local governments in Zavala county in Texas during late 60's and early 70's, I was not aware of the extent to which Gutierrez assembled a get out the vote political machine for La Raza Unida.

It was much like Tammany Hall concerning organization and patronage of the poor and immigrants and was called Communidadados Unidos, United Community of which Gutierrez was the head. There is some alleged looting and embezzlement, but it would not have been on the grand scale of Tammany Hall nor even approached what my understanding is of what some of the United Farm Workers leadership did with the members dues.

Gutierrez realized that once an election had been won, the next election campaign immediately started and that the La Raza Unida party needed both a consistent cash flow in the form of contributions and consistent voter turnout for its platform.

Territory was divided into precincts with precinct captains over block leaders and volunteers under block leaders. There were sound trucks prowling neighborhoods, and radio stations played political spots.

This was funded through payroll deductions of Communidados Unidos members (presumably government and school district jobs handed out to reward political activism) along with fundraising dances and other entertainment. Communidados Unidos also campaigned for La Raza Unida by holding political and organizing fetes with free beer and food a la the Mexican PRI.

Employees of occupations controlled by the machine who were not favorable to La Raza Unida were ran off. While attention was nominally paid to all areas of the community, neighborhoods which voted La Raza Unida got first priority.

The leadership of Comunidados Unidos was comprised of elected officials, county and school administration, organizations which included the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, and leaders within the community.

Saul Alinski's methods of community organizing were utilized as well as the universal racist tactic of polarizing racial consciousness.

Polarization of the races is what I mean when I say that racists need racial hatred. It is an organizing tool which invents racial grievances for propaganda purposes when the real deal isn't enough to legitimately address. The goal is to instigate regular people on both sides into hating each other so much that nothing can be worked out and only one side is going to win in an epic race battle - and racist puppeteers of that one side achieve their agenda.

The issue of the children of illegal aliens is one example of this tactic, they are tools, pawns, and propaganda fodder in a game not of their making. After all, goes the reasoning, who would be so hard hearted to throw out children who were born elsewhere but don't truly belong to their parents' country, and deportation of parents and other relatives will be long remembered in the political consciousness of children of illegal aliens from Latin America who are citizens by virtue of the 14th amendment. This is cynically accomplished by pressure on politicians by American brown supremacists not to enforce immigration law. Several goals are advanced in one stroke.
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  #20  
Old 08-17-2012, 08:03 AM
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My impressions from Armando Navarro's book concerning La Raza Unida and the community are so many and varied that they can't really be condensed into a few words. Mostly it's "WOW". So many things from power consolidation (even includes a Latino beer franchise war) to education to political implosion and racial hypocrisy.

Navarro's general references and quotes from participants concerning brown people in Zavala county and beyond as "Mexicanos". This is further broken down into "Chicanos", "vendidos" (sell outs), and "Coconuts" (brown on the outside, white on the inside). In his writing, this is not so absolute as this paragraph seems to make it. The references to Caucasians are generally "whites" and "Gringos" (with the general meanings of oppressors, racists, or opposers of La Raza Unida) or Anglos (those in sympathy or at least neutral with La Raza Unida). While his prejudice is obvious, I do believe his assertion that he tried to leave his prejudices behind for writing the book.

There are several different impressions concerning brown people in the book. There were migratory workers with a home base in Zavala county and Crystal itself and there are no references concerning illegal residence or distinction between birth citizenship nationality or naturalization, but the story revolves around people who appear to have been American for generations. The Latino base for La Raza Unida support appears to have been poor people, it seems those with a middle class income tended to oppose La Raza Unida.

It may surprise some (I've understood this for some time), but a portion of brown resistance to La Raza Unida had to do with the manner of imposition and type of bilingual education in the local schools. There were parents who believed their children weren't learning English well enough under the party direction (instruction was primarily in Spanish) and Jose Gutierrez and the party turned a deaf ear to complaints. Some believed Gutierrez placed too much emphasis on race, that he needed to knock it back a notch.

Political machine Comunidadas Unidas (the power behind La Raza Unida) wielded complete control in the county concerning public and educational jobs, which were just about the only decent paying jobs in the county. There was influence in other occupations. Jobs were used to reward supporters of the party agenda and dissenters were fired. Gutierrez himself, without legal education, became a county judge.

Politics were nasty indeed. There was a lot of scurrilous polarization both between races and within the "brown community". Once in power, Communidadas Unidas engaged in voter intimidation and arranged such things as turning the power off to buildings hosting opposition meetings. There were threats of suing power companies and telephone companies which provided service to opposition groups. Proof of residency was sometimes required of whites and opponents in order to vote - contrasting with the fact that before La Raza Unida took power, Gutierrez brought in federal observers to ensure there was no white voter fraud. There was some voter fraud by Communidadas Unidas, but it was inconsequential to election outcome.

Towards the end, Gutierrez and his Machine were brought down not by hostile whites, but by (including but not limited to) increased brown hostility to policies, increased taxes, power consolidated in too few hands, resentments and aspirations within the machine, a police department which was infused with party politics and machine directives, bringing in people from outside the community to fill high pay jobs no one in the brown rural community were qualified to do, Gutierrez over reaching and dictatorial presumption, and the La Raza Unida trip to learn and bring back ideas from Cuba. Navarro quotes a local individual (which requires reading between the lines as to what is really meant concerning "Mexican" and self identity among multi generational Americans with Mexican ancestors):

Quote:
They were totally Mexican. They were also citizens of Texas and the United States. I don't think ideologically they identified with Cuba, Nicaragua, or even Mexico.
These were people, regardless of ancestry, mix of culture, or status in society who had a mentality shaped by multi generational American experience.

In the end, there were even death threats by Latinos against Gutierrez, and three Latinos were apprehended by police trying to assassinate Gutierrez with a large rattlesnake with its rattles cut off. It was in a burlap bag and the intent was turning it loose in an enclosed area Gutierrez frequented. Gutierrez got a gun permit.

There was infighting within the machine (the machine grew so large Gutierrez had to subordinate some power) as well as attacks from a Latino opposition party - La Raza Libre (formed of long term opponents), and there lawsuits from within and without.

One of my more prominent impressions is corroboration of my belief that brown supremacists and ethnic nationalism need a continual influx of poor foreigners from Latin America and their children to shower goodies and privilege on as well as invoking the Anglo Sajon boogie man (the white man is out to get YOU!!!!) in order to fulfill their racist agenda.
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"A nickel will get you on the subway, but garlic will get you a seat." - Old New York Yiddish Saying

"You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra

Old journeyman commenting on young apprentices - "Think about it, these are their old days"

SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Never, ever, wear a bright colored shirt to a stand up comedy show.


Last edited by ilbegone; 08-17-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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