Is it time to pack up the tent?
 

Are we going to be having any SoCal events any time soon, or is what we've experienced since the end of last March pretty much the new norm? Will we have activist doings in 2011 (and I mean more than one or two) or is SOS now almost entirely a message board entity?

We have three events up here in Sac coming up which I have obtained clearance on one so far. All three will be in January, and run three consecutive days. I posted this in this section:

http://saveourstate.info/showthread.php?t=3187

After I get the clearance for the other two, I'll post them in the official events section.
But as you can tell, there's not much interest from anyone in those. That doesn't mean to say we're a message board only though, because we have been doing events all along, including the one protest in Southern Ca against Meg Whitman's little concubine. We've held several up here too as you might remember, at the capitol.
I know it doesn't seem like much to those of us who want to see more, and who were passionately active over the last several years, but that doesn't mean we're dead, nor are we in spirit either. I tend to take these things in longer terms, so I'm a little more tolerant of the slow periods, which I'm hoping is what we've been experiencing lately. You gotta consider the nature of people too, in that they are always looking for the new sliced bread. Right now many are still infatuated with the TEA parties, although I see a little drifting already in those circles. People are always looking for new stimulus, kind of like they do with restaurants and movies. We're in it for the long haul though, and we will do what we can, when we can, as resources, personnel, and interest allows. I'd like to see more of course, but I do understand the circumstances of the times, as finances are dictating the participation of many people, especially me for that matter, and there are so many targets right now that seem to some of us as powerfully important as the immigration scheme. The elections, the economy, and the weather just to name a few.

But if it's any consolation, I'm just as motivated, and still interested in keeping up the effort as I was three years or more ago, and Jean and I are always discussing different tactics and actions that we can do with the limited resources that we have at present. We're certainly open to the input and participation of others, as we have always kept that door wide open, and there's no interest in just closing up shop or letting it slide purposely into a state of decay. We also respect the effort that you have given towards the organization, especially the actions you've put time and finances into, so if I haven't said it before, thanks from all of us.

Dude, you didn't answer the question.

Davi, I'm not attacking you nor am I making a confrontational inquiry. Further, I'm aware that you've orchestrated any number of things in Sacto. I was asking about SoCal b/c that's where the bulk of our membership is and commonly where events can be organized because we've got bodies, and can get more bodies through nearby outfits with whom we associate.

My question is are we going to be having events this year, down here, or are we pretty much message-board only now?

The reason I ask is b/c we've done next to nothing in L.A./OC/Ventura since Frank hung up his cleats. It's been approx. 9 months and Save Our State essentially sat on the sidelines during one of the most intense immigration event periods during our adult lives.

You don't have to justify yourself. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of anything. I'm just asking because we're at the beginning of a new year and the national immigration debate is heading for a resolution, one way or the other.

So, are we or aren't we?

Are we?
Yes

Do we have any planned down there right now?
No

I can't order people to do events. It is in our best interest to inspire them, coax them, aid them, and set examples for them; which I believe we are still doing. But quality is preferable to quantity, and picking the time and places to expend our capital is our best strategy right now. If you have suggestions, by all means let's try and act on them, but right this minute it's in the middle of a nasty winter and we are still trying to entice our former betheren back, so I don't want to toss a poorly crafted, run of the mill exercise that might just end up less than enthusiastic and cripple our credibility.
I don't agree that we sat on the sidelines this year. Considering what SOS went through...A thorough backstabbing by the former management, orchestrated to a goal of sinking the ship by sabatoge...and yet we got back on our feet in spite of their larcenous attempt, and held several events, one of which thrust the race card to a position where it was scrutinzed in the press. We've done OK for a near homicide victim.

I have some thoughts on this, but I need to refine them a bit before I post.

Great Pocho. Think fast please. Ray Herrera has done many this year, and I've tried to make it to them all. There are so many coming out and shouting and they need to know that we are still around and ready. Love you all.

The movement, sos included has taken some trastic hits and imho the members, & public in general has given up. I have not. For reasons that some are aware of I cant go into specifics, but I am in Mexico alot and in dangerous places, no brag just fact. When we lost Campo, and again imho we lost it, we lost alot of momentum and spirit. I back sos now as I did a few years ago, but to keep the troops spirits alive they must be motivated and interested, not just up on what is going on, that is what the media does, inform us, people need their patriatism jump started for them to keep going. God Bless America and her people!

I'm happy to read that you're still with us 4shadows.

SOS has not given up either, and there's no need for a funeral here. The year has just begun, and there's lots to do. As always, everyone is welcome and encouraged to participate.

Ultimately the border security movement in Southern California is dead. It is dead because there are three people who think they are the movement. They are in no particular order: Nightingale, Coe & Gilchrist. Unless you are a part of one of the three you are a no body, and you will not get one once of support. Case in point, the American Apparel protest Jean and I tried field. No attendance (including myself, but that was because of an emergency appendectomy). No support, even on the old SOS. Why? Because I was involved. In other words, it was a case of ego trumping the cause. The principle of stopping illegal immigration has always been my drive in getting involved in this movement. Illegal immigration has to be the sole focus.

In my mind there are three major players, or persons with substantial influence in the southern California border security movement, Nightingale, Coe & Gilchrist. Cross any one of the three and you are dead in the water. They will cut off your numerical support. They will cut off all lines of communication. They will actively bad-mouth you to others. The reason for this is simple: They think they are the voice for border security in southern California. I saw this when Sam organized his vigil for Jamel Shaw. Sam got no support from Nightingale and Coe.

The problem with those three is that they hold way too much influence, and can define their enemies in terms that place them in the best light possible to their mindless followers. I have discovered that with these three in particular, it is all about ego and email lists. Personally, I have no email list. I had and have no agenda, other than wanting to stop the illegal invasion that is slowing but surely killing our country and culture.

Further, I think that so many of use that were in the front lines for so long are just tired of fighting and not seeing any return for our fight. Or worse yet, we have been wounded by the people that we thought were in the fight with us. I believe that the second proposition is more prevalent than the second. I for one lost a lot of the energy I had when I first joined this movement after the fall out I had with the old SOS management.

While Robin and Ray are doing a great job out in the IE, the fact remains that Los Angeles is the place were an impact must be made. Events in Los Angeles will attract media attention because it is in Los Angeles as opposed to the IE. What is needed is something that will put border security back on the media's radar. We need something radical and new. We can no longer have the same old protests and counter-protests were each side screams at each other. The media has seen this, and it won't excite them. What did excite them? The last time I recall the media covering anything we did was after Ted Hayes and the other four of us crossed the LAPD line at Leimert Park. Now I could be wrong about this, but I don't recall media at the Simi Valley church protest, or the Westwood Federal building Ron Paul lovefest.

So what is that radical and new protest? I really have no idea. This is where we need people with fresh ideas, at best, or at least, a meeting of the minds. Some of the best ideas I heard were at lunches after events, but we never had the chance to implement them.

As for me, I would love to get a jump start that would re-energize my passion for border security. I just don't see a reason to get energized based on the turnouts and the general passion of people. Then again I could be all wrong, and everything I have just written is just another steaming pile of bovine excrement.

I'm going to disagree with you on a few things.

Number 1, alot of this is old news, and we are dealing with today. The past events you wrote about were far enough back not to be effecting our present as much as you might believe.

#2, Gilchrist and Nightingale are no longer 2 of the three players here in California. Nightingale gave it up for more personalized fame, which she didn't succeed in, and I cannot remember when the last time was that I saw Jim or MMP in the news related to anything in Los Angeles.

And lastly, the movement is still alive, with some of the same people, but sans the energy that drove us onto the streets before. Nightingale may have crippled us at the time, but there's little excuse for that now. People are basically come up short where it concerns long term projects. This is why you see so many exercise machines that look like they're new, out in the front yards during garage sales. Likewise, many sailboats are sitting in garages with barely more than their keels laid.
But we are a long term organization. We think long, act long, and stick with things for long terms. So what if the enthusiasm isn't gushing right now. We'll be here when it does, and in the meantime we'll be here keeping the seats warm and the ship rowing forward.

Wow, interesting analysis. Dude, I almost entirely disagree with you.

Firstly, what was the last thing you can recall Chelene or Gilchrist organizing in SoCal that was immigration centered?

Secondly, what was the last immigration protest you can recall Barb spearheading that didn't involve multiple people who think of Chelene as pond scum?

Thirdly, in all seriousness, would you want any of their reputations? And you can add Schwilk's to that list. And I don't mean "reputations" among people who detest them or have axes to grind, or reputations with sycophants. I mean to the larger public.

Fourthly, the events we had in the first quarter of '10 disprove most of what you said. Those Santa Clarita events rocked. Jean and Frank dug up passionate folks we'd never seen before - a good number of them.

Don't kid yourself. SOS (This SOS, not the old one) can stage events and produce bodies. The evidence of this has been produced on multiple occasions. We haven't because events haven't been scheduled. We have an organizing committee that no longer organizes. Period.

Chelene and her merry band of conspiracy theorists have about as much impact on what we choose to do, as they did on the gubernatorial election. The Shaws, Ted, Tea Partiers, California Crusaders, etc. People will show ...

The event committee is still open for people who want to join it. It's always been open.

Maybe. It's really hard to pull everyone together at once. One of the things pocho mentioned is somewhat true. There needs to be a catalyst...something new or exciting...to draw everyone together for an event. That opportunity hasn't arisen yet. And when it isn't present, you have to work ten times harder at getting butts in seats.

I wholeheartedly agree. All manner of fireworks and happenings went off last year, and we sat it out. Gutierrez, Fiorina/Boxer, DREAM Act, exhibitions of civil disobedience, SB1070 ... all of it.

Whether the event committee is open membership or closed is irrelevant. We have one, it has personnel, but nothing gets produced anymore.

That's just reality.

It is not irrelevant whether the event committee is open or closed. We have stated from the outset that we invite and welcome participation, and we prove our intent by keeping the door, and opportunity, open to those who wish to be active. If the committee was closed, that would be a relevant factor in why there wasn't any events. However, there have been events. July, August, september, and October, Save Our State held events. It is not unconscionable that we didn't hold events in November and December. The election, the holidays, and the weather are solid factors that planners don't want to compete with. Now here it is January, and we'll be having three more events this month.
We'd like to see more, however, as stated here already, we are a non-profit organization with limited resources at present; we do what we can, when we can, and where we can.

I think it is very discouraging to those who organize and post all the details and then no one is interested. Just about all the time I would try and let it be known if I could attend but now of course, I am retired. :)

I see a number of new members in the last month or so, I do hope this will encourage others to step up for some action, believe me, we need you.
Never forget this in not entertainment, this is for the very survival of our country.

I've been to all that was on my time schedule this past year, and missed others. There are so many new faces, it's a boost to all of those who've been out in the trenches. Yes, we need to get out there and make our self visible. Others need to see this, so that they know they are not alone. Why even SZ has moved up to actual printed signs. Personally I love his signs made on old card board boxes. We still have the fight and the passion, and many of us are tired, but must go on. I'm old, but I'm bold! God Bless America and the fight must continue. Many have gone to the cities and done the fight in the government offices, this has been effective. Let's go and do our thing, it is not dead.

I am glad that I am wrong. Maybe being out of the loop for as long as I have been has jaded my point of view. Perhaps getting older has caused me to forget a lot of the events from the beginning of 2010. SB1070 was in deed a the type of catalyst that was needed in order to re-energize this movement.

California Crusader has been real busy, then there is the 912 group our here and a few more. But, the new faces you see is awesome. Even my church has finally got into it. I was the only rebel there.

Those are just not very accurate or relevant observations.

- The issue is not, and has not been, events. It is events in So. Calif., where most of our membership resides.
- Being a non-profit doesn't interfere with any of our attempts to stand on sidewalks, wave signs or give speeches. We have just as little funding as we always have.
- The election, the holidays, and the weather explain non-activity since October, not inaction since last spring.
- Open or closed membership in the organizing committee does not prevent the people currently in the organizing committee from organizing. Keeping your door open or extending opportunity is fine and dandy ... and doesn't hinder any person currently in the committee from orchestrating public appearances.

Look, you've answered my original inquiry, so I won't belabor the points any further. If nothing else, this thread has been illuminating as to why we've been in a coma down here; and I mean that without an ounce of sarcasm or hostility. You answered the questions I've had - Thanks.

No problem. Glad we were able to help.

We do have events in play right now, albeit up in Sacramento. It makes sense to conduct them up here at this time because we have access to the statehouse, and several centers of the institutions that affect our agenda. I'm certain we'll have some in the Southern end of the state soon too.

I posted an incorrect name for the Fresno State student a few days ago. It is Pedro Rameriz and not Pedro Hernandez. Probably everyone caught the error but just in case someone did not.

Below is the fellow student who is investigating Rameriz. I would say he is doing a good job and his contact info is here. If I post any more I will start a new thread concerning the matter. If you can help Neil I am sure he would appreciate it.



Neil O'Brien, Citizen's Advocate



P. O. Box 2187



Clovis, Ca 93613



Direct: (760) 898-9898



E-mail: neil@ntrdinc.com





cfontana@fresnobee.com





Critic of Fresno State student leader takes action





Read more:

http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/01/03/...#ixzz1A5KMON2o

A Fresno State student critical of the university's student president submitted public information requests Monday to campus officials.



Neil O'Brien, a recreation major, said he is continuing an investigation of Associated Students Inc. President Pedro Ramirez, who acknowledged last fall that he is an illegal immigrant.

There was something in the LA Times the other day about how the newcomers might be shaped by Washington rather than the newcomers shaping Washington, when idealism is confronted by various political realities.

There has to room for compromise, or nothing at all will get done. The California legislature is a perfect example of that sort of problem, where legislation of "SHOW OFF YOUR GAY PEEK-A-POO DOG DAY" is vastly more important than an unsustainable budget crisis.

On the other hand, I believe the various electorates actually have had enough that if election promises to the population which elected them - on any side of any issue - are not kept, the mob will be out with sharp knives next election cycle.

There has to be found a way to get around the media. The media in general is very sympathetic to the illegal alien cause, I believe the incessant drum beat in favor of the illegal population is toned down only because of the current audience climate - it's hard to generate circulation and viewing loyalty (ultimately sales and profit) by publishing "downtrodden immigrant" stories with unemployment of the average citizenry in such numbers.

But face it - the only stories the media are going to present concerning anti illegal immigration functions will be slanted and accusatory.

They have to dig up a certain percentage of those who have gone on to higher education to to present the propaganda. What isn't being done by the media is revealing the outrageous drop out rate of "Latinos", and the fact that there is no distinction being made between "Latinos" who are citizens and those who are illegal.

No amount of money is going to improve education results for the majority mentioned until reality is faced and admission as to why those problems exist.

There may be a indeterminate lull in time concerning bodies present for anti illegal immigrantion functions, but the fact that so many states are legislating SB 1070 copy cat laws after the fact of and in the face of the Department of Justice Lawsuit against Arizona says something about the concerns of the general American population.

Thank you to Save Our State members
 

Yesterdays State of the Union speech, as pointed out by Roy Beck, did not have the following words...
"DREAM Act" or "legalization" or "comprehensive immigration reform."
This was made possible by all of the SOS hard work through the last years,now spreading across America.
At this point, I think more of our work should be on E-verify and enforcement.
Based on my own recent experience, people are ready to hear the real story on this issue and not be blinded by the labels.
Any SoCal rally is a good one as it lets the public know they are not alone in the way they see things now. Some of these people might have been unsympathetic in the past. The last few years have made it a little easier for the average LA resident to rethink illegal immigration.
This should be a great time to add members! With better weather now,I am looking forward to be out there with all you guys.

Thank you for the words of encouragement.

Controversial Muslim cleric caught being smuggled into U.S. over Mexico border
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...co-border.html

Here is a situation that we could protest in Santa Monica. Even muslims would agree with us. It would give us a chance to talk to different people, that I believe, are looking for a "reason" now to support border enforcement. They have not been able to get past the "racist" label because of all the programming going on.
We have a budget crisis, unemployment rate, and overall bad to worse economy to shake these people loose from their past ignorance.

Let's do it, santa monica's not too far.

There is an Event Organizers Group that you can join to discuss such things. I encourage you to do that and it will be discussed.

Why Santa Monica though? Where did that come from? The article said nothing about that area, and it's not central to all our members, just curious.

To get on the event organizers committee, go to the link in your upper left hand corner on the menu bar that says "User CP". Then go down the menu on the left to "Networking", and then you'll see "Group Memberships". Just click that you want to join "event planners" and the administrator will make it so within a day or two

Location suggestion
 

I threw the idea of Santa Monica out there because I was thinking about the area around Third Steet promenade where some other groups have set up tables promoting various political views. The place has a mix of locals and tourists. It falls into my view that SOS has a fresh opportunity to educate the public. I think SOS had a past rally near the Santa Monica Pier. I was not there but I did see a video on Youtube.

I really do not know what area is "central" to our members as I am not aware of where everyone lives. I just assume that members close to any area will do what they can. I would hope that if there if a rally in San Bernadino, that SOS would not pass on it if I could not drive that far. That is the same reason I haven't driven to Big Bear lake in a while.lol!
Anyway, I leave it up to the group to decide when and where.

For what it is worth
 

The original Minuteman Project and the original SOS both had unique goals. The Minuteman project was simple and brought attention to the border something that was not happening at all. SOS (Joe Turner) had a goal of bringing local attention to the issue by organizing local protest. Both strategies worked for awhile and they both failed.

Protests are a waste of time unless some political gain comes from it. Keep in mind that only politicians can change policies, laws, and enforcement practices...which is the only thing that is going to make a difference. Standing around with bull horns (sorry Sandy if you are around here), inviting counter protests, or inviting protestors that maybe counterproductive to the cause, does very little to sway public opinion or achieve any political gain.

Until this is recognized, SOS, or any organization will always be a failure. They say politics is local, this is where the fight begins. Its voters that SOS needs, not protests. If a politician is pro amnesty, that is your target. Immigration or amnesty does not necessarily have to be the election issue. You use whatever is in your favor. You organize not by so cal, nor cal, you organize by political districts. You also don't advertize you are a anti illegal immigration platform. You are pro something or other. "Anti" gives a negative whereas "Pro" gives a positive. Protest have a place in politics.... but protest need to include a political strategy to be sucessful.

First off, Welcome back!
Always glad to see our betheren, who drifted away for whatever reason, come home.:)


With that said...I have to thrash you a little on a couple things

Protests are not always aimed at politicians. They are often aimed at enforcement officials like the police or some investigation unit of certain agencies. They are also aimed at gathering support, notifying the public of a problem, or just becoming as much of a nuisance as the problem itself, so as to create incentive for change. Politicians are also not behind things like initiatives, and it is street level activism that gained the notariety that enabled initiatives to happen. Protests have been quite effective for people like Ghandi, Lech Walesa, Ceasar Chavez, and MLK Jr.


SOS was not a failure, nor is it, nor is it predestined to be in the future. The past actions we did are still providing material for the effort, training for new people, and inspiration for those who feel the same as we do. In addition, I can tell you that our actions at the day labor area here in Sac alone had an effect. We brought pressure and the the illegals supporters had to spend time and money to keep them dispersed. Had it not been for day labor protests, the HD's and similar sites would be operating at 10 times the capacity now. Our protests gave the indication to authorites and politicians that there were limits to what they could get away with. Politicians can be bought off, threatened, and even bumped off after we elect them, so it's not all about voters. Protesters are what give them the backbone support they need if the first of those two comes before them.

Hell, I could go on and on about this, refuting your claim, however I'm not a bit convinced that this org or the others were destined to fail simply because they were not aimed at politicians or districts. Voters are being replaced as we speak, and voter fraud can cancel them out. What you gonna do then?

Hi Davi,
I guess you got my PM....and remember who I am... :)

As you know, I pull no punches but I try and be polite..

"Protests are not always aimed at politicians. They are often aimed at enforcement officials like the police or some investigation unit of certain agencies."....OK....Who is charge of those enforcement officials?

I will agree...."Protests have been quite effective for people like Ghandi, Lech Walesa, Ceasar Chavez, and MLK Jr." All these great people had a political end goal...

Your more affective using your strategy of code enforcement than protesting. Again, unless you recognize that politics is the root of the problem, you lose. Change the politics or the political environment, you win. You can claim all the individual success's or perceived success's you want. The borders are not secured, illegals still influence local election and policies, and protesting without voters behind it is useless. Change the politician, change the policy.

Rant on...:)

We don't always hold protests; We hold events
Check through the upcoming events section to see what we've been up to.

But be careful about upsetting an old protester like me. I might challenge you to a duel :D

You know I love a good dual...But I won't be hiking down the street with my .06 and in my hunting gear to go to the range..:D

Don't care for the taste of warm asphalt? Once you taste black, you can never go back :D

It's not the asphalt...I want to keep my teeth...:D

I didn't lose those there. That happened the year before, and totally different circumstances.;)
Open carry is an important a right as an open mouth ie the first amendment. I'm not a fanatic about guns, but I might be about rights.:cool: