Trying to keep racism at arm’s length
 

Trying to keep racism at arm’s length
Save Our State anti-illegal immigration group seeks to distance itself from white supremacists
By Jonathan Randles
Signal Staff Writer

The organization opposed to illegal immigration that has held two rallies in Santa Clarita in less than two months has struggled with an image problem since 2005: Members or others sometimes post racist comments on the group's message boards and occasionally show up at protests with racist messages.

Organizers for Save Our State said racism is not what their group is about, and they fear white supremacists harm the group's reputation.

"We got a lot of people in (SOS) of mixed races, or full-blooded races, that pass off as minorities these days," said Davi Rodriguez, who leads SOS out of Sacramento.

Trying to figure out who is racist on SOS' many message boards is often difficult, he said.

"You get these people who join the organization, they don't tell you who they are," Rodriguez said. "But then you strike a nerve with them and they would blurt something on the message boards."

Weeding out SOS members who could be white supremacists is a challenge, Rodriguez said.

"You don't want to go on a Nazi hunt in your own organization," Rodriguez said.

Save Our State has a set of rules and guidelines that clearly state it does not allow racism on message boards, but those rules don't always appear to be followed.

"Although we allow people to discuss race issues (on the message boards), we don't condone the white supremacist stuff," said Jean, a Fillmore resident who has organized two SOS rallies in Santa Clarita, including Saturday's rally.

She declined to provide her last name, citing concerns about personal safety.

SOS does its best to distance itself from racist organizations, but it must respect free speech rights, Jean said.

"We don't want to ban people as long as (what they're posting) is not real racist," she said. "We try to keep an eye on them. We put them in a restricted area so they can only go in that area and post."

Jean said she has been to several SOS rallies and only saw white supremacists at one, held in Simi Valley. SOS members tried to distance themselves from the skinheads at the rally by having them move into a parking lot across the street during the protest, she said.

Heidi Beirich, director of research at the Southern Poverty Law Center, said some of the posts on SOS message boards - not all of them in the restricted posting area - expand on white supremacist ideology.

An SOS member posted this message describing illegal immigrants in his community on Nov. 30: "From my personal observations and experience living in the trenches with them, the majority of them are brain dead ignoramuses coming here for as many freebies and subsidies they can get and will use any criminals means they can to get what they want. They're violent, arrogant, dishonest and anti-American."

Beirich said that post, like several others on the site, is blatantly racist.

"This comment is just plain old racism," Beirich said in an e-mail. "Ascribing slurs and demonizing adjectives to an entire population is simply that: racist."

The organization's site has thousands of posts that cover a wide range of topics - including one thread about the NFL. Members of SOS often disagree whether a post is appropriate or racist.

"People will see what they want to see. I don't pigeonhole people in certain categories," Jean said. "The idea that we are all right-wing religious nuts is wrong. We are a wide swath of what the country is."

Several other SOS posts say illegal immigrants could overwhelm native Californians - something similar to white supremacist ideology, Beirich said.

"White nationalists like to argue that immigration from Latin America is leading to white racial suicide and therefore should be stopped," Beirich said in an e-mail.

The goal of the rallies is not to get people talking about race, Rodrguez said, but to get people talking about illegal immigration and to bring new members into the organization.

"We look for people who feel the same way we do," Rodriguez said. "We want to gather up like-minded people and teach them before people on the other side teach them wrong."
http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/25310/

This is exactly the thing I've been talking about - the stuff said on the message board that will be used against the goal of the United States actually enforcing immigration law:

They (the media and the SPLC) are not going to quote these next two entries:

It's my belief that if you are frustrated with all the negative things which have happened since the 1981 recession concerning illegal immigration, maybe you need to watch your words. Whatever your motivation, they (the media and others) are not going to quote anything from SOS which shows an understanding of the viewpoint of illegal aliens and their illegal migration yet demands enforcement of immigration law because of the damage illegal migration has done to my America over the last forty years. However, the contrary will immediately be pounced on and exploited.

As well, if one has an overwhelming need to refer to illegals AND American citizens with Latin American ancestry in all generations of citizenship in a blanketed derogatory manner as well as put forward an idea that one needs to blindly harden one's heart towards everyone with Latin American ancestry while demanding the merciless hounding of them all, It's my belief that /those person(s) need(s) to sh** the Fu** up" because those words will be seized on and used against the goal of immigration law enforcement.

Again, it doesn't help that some put forth in a blanket manner that "Hispanics" do this or do that without clarifying which "Hispanics" are involved in doing this or that.

It is further my belief that, despite all the media bias and the "Latino advocates" (who arrogantly presume to speak for everyone else) the media seems to be in bed with, that there are many American citizens with Latin American ancestry who would be receptive to the message if it were not for the fact that much of the commentary seems to include them for deportation along with illegal aliens

One more time, for what it's worth.

The minute that anyone opposed to the international immigration problem starts mincing their words so as not to offend the defenders of illegal immigration, then they might as well give up. The only reason they assume an offended position is because they know that opposition to illegal immigration requires a conscience. Having a conscience makes you vulnerable in a way that the open borders will never be. They have no conscience. It is a fake pose carefully calculated to manipulate those who do have a conscience.

If you are angry, if you wish to stand up and speak in no uncertain terms and give words to your anger and outrage, you have an obligation to your conscience to do so. Your only responsibility is to stand by your words and show some reflection and integrity. That's all. Ignore people who tell you to "Shut the f**k up". Ignore people who won't even pretend to care what you are actually saying

I'll say it again. Illegal immigrants need to be hunted down and thrown out. Nobody who does not have permission to be here should imagine they have a moment's peace. Not them, not their children, not their grandparents. Nobody. This country is not a nursery nor a retirement home nor a hospital for anyone sneaking accross the border. "Shut the f**k up"? Get the f**k out. Now.

I know exactly what you are saying, and this is what I see:

1) An old film clip which documented a WWII German officer beating an old Jewish man to the ground, beat and kicked him some more, then killed the old man with a pistol.

2) The guys who unfurled a Nazi flag at an SOS rally some years ago, whether they came from the National Socialists seeking to embarrass SOS for spurning them or were part of the far left seeking to discredit SOS's efforts concerning illegal immigration.

What do you do besides run your hate spewing mouth?

I will guarantee you one thing, and it's certainly a promise. If you or any of your buddies show up on my doorstep with your racist attitude, you will receive an unpleasant education as to why you should have reconsidered your itinerary.

I never thought I ever would say anything like I am saying to you at SOS.

A great voice in a great cause. This is the resolve that is necessary to win a war for national survival.

Animals are hunted, not people. Please tone down your posts, and don't use the excuse of political correctness. You're getting very close to crossing the line.

What do you do besides lie about what I am posting? When you constantly pose me as a Nazi, you are lying. There is nothing in what I have posted anyhwere, absolutely nothing to suggest a comparison with Nazis. And then you tell me to "Shut the f**k up". You have already crossed the line.

I insist that the administrators here do something about it. These kind of false accusations are exactly the same strategy applied by the open borders crowds and I think this is what this guy is, just a subversive trying to incite hysteria against me, somebody who has demonstrated in posts over and over again complete opposition to racism and violence of any kind, anywhere.

Again, this is a hysterical accusation. You most certainly hunt criminals down. This is the job of law enforcement and especially the immigration authorities and this is what needs to be done to illegal immgrants. They need to be hunted down and thrown out.

Don, go hurl yourself off a cliff. You have already shamed yourself by insisting that people attending a Ku Klux Klan meeting is something to find encouragement in. Now you are trying to iincite trouble against me by posing sympathy for my posts. We have nothing in common, you know it and you are also lying by posting as if we do.

Is there nobody posting here with an ounce of integrity or sincerity? Is it all just deception and spin?

Some food for thought, Twoller:


The above quotes very well describes your mode as well as what you actually do have in common with Don despite the denial:

Twoller, you might as well just suit up and torch the cross - You have all the qualifications to fit right in with the white sheet brigade.

In Nazi Germany, the descriptive word was "Vermin":

Just about all the bases concerning old time Nazi propaganda were hit in this one:

A biased reply concerning "Hispanics" who are American citizens as if they were all knuckle dragging child molesting troglodyte illegals straight from Mexico:

Now "mindless and souless" as well as universaly stupid:

I twist what you have to say, neglect to understand your true intent? You say it well enough without any help from me.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck.

Wow! Pretty strong stuff you wrote there Twoller.


When are you going to publish your first book?

You two obviously work together. Maybe you are the same person posting under two different aliases.

I stand by what I say. The Nazis accused innocent and honorable people of being vermin. The Nazis themselves were the vermin and the illegal immigrant, Adolph Hitler was the worse vermin of them all. It was no wonder he needed to displace his own slimy soul onto innocent people. The illegal immigrants can easily seen to be vermin by their own criminality and behavior. They are vermin, else we would want them here. Amnesty would work and sensible people would support it.

Illegal immigrants are bad people and deserve any acrimony we can heap on them. We need to match contempt with contempt.

You show a lot of contempt for American citizens (who, by the way, have the right to vote) when you fail to distinguish between them and illegal aliens.

In your mind, they're all the same, and you alienate those of them who have been harmed by illegal immigration as much as anyone else as well as hand ammunition on those who would send you "back to Europe".

This is the high regard you hold those American citizens in:

All of them child molesting cavemen.

If that's not unmitigated, exploitable, blanket bigotry, I don't know what is.

Recess everyone,

I would like to address the posts in here in a general sense, however tonight I'm a bit shallow in thought. In the interim, if everyone would first consider that not all of us have moderate or tempered responses about the illegals. We usually request a bit of restraint on the public forum because we are a charitable organization, and we would rather see those with powerful commentary aim it at their political parties, reps and appointees as opposed to the illegal alien population...for now anyway

More lying, misrepresentation and spin. There is nothing to you. You are a tube.

As long as people continue to defend illegal immigrants and their enablers and evoke sympathy for them at this forum, then it should be the best strategy to provoke the more natural revulsion for them. Nobody posting here should be required to stand by peacably while other posters evoke sympathy for illegal immigrants, anchor babies and other frauds commited against real US citizenship.

This is nothing but ad hominem. Do you, and your ilk, have a reasonable response to the points made?

Who exactly is attempting to "evoke sympathy" for illegal aliens? What has been asked is that the rhetoric from you, and your ilk, be toned down. I do not think that request is unreasonable.

Yes, you should be required to stand by peaceably. The purpose of this group is to make changes peaceably. If that does not line up with your agenda, then perhaps another board will do the trick for you, and your ilk.

ibegone is correct in his assessment of your posts. They are are hateful and uncivilized. While we may abhor what they do and have done to this country, they are still people, and, in my view, children of God. As such, they must be accorded respect and dignity. If you are unable to do that, then I am sure that there are other boards that would welcome you, and your ilk.

Many years ago, I heard Doug McIntyre say that he would not join the border security movement groups because of the propensity for these groups to attract racist people into their midst. When I first heard this I scoffed at it. I remember thinking that he must be a RINO (like some of you think). However, the longer I have been in the border security movement, the more I have seen his thoughts come to fruition. There are people like that in this movement, and they MUST be dealt with.

I have been called a person that hates whites. Why? Simply because I stand up and say that certain statements have racial and ethnic overtones. I find this laughable. I look at what a person does and not what skin color he/she has. Their actions are what I base my critique upon, and not the accident of skin pigmentation.

If dehumanizing people is part of your strategy, then I will not be a part of it, and I will will fight you every time you post that sort of trash. That stuff is best left in the past with the Nazis, the Khmer Rouge, and other ethnic cleansing campaigns.

Since the recess bell has been ignored, we are now going to a timeout with this thread.
The forum is a valuable tool for us, however it should not be used as a placebo for the symptoms of illegal immigration. I think everyone here is on the same page that illegal immigration should be stopped. I believe most here believe in deportation as a big part of the solution. The methods of achieving that are where we begin to see cracks in our unity. Please don't let those cracks turn into crevasses by getting overly absorbed in a discussion. Talk is cheap, you know, and it often accomplishes nothing more than making those involved in that form of intercourse feel better or worse. Addressing your feelings is a necessary component of relationships here, but we are an action based organization, and it wouldn't fit in with our agenda to have everyone caught up in arguments over what may be irrelevant conversation in the end. By irrelevant conversation, I refer to making brash statements that are unsupported in practice. The "hunting them down" portion of this thread is precisely at issue. I don't know if Twoller is actively engaged in that practice, but I have not seen anything concrete to support that, so I'll assume for the moment that the answer is no. And if the answer is no, why get your fellow American citizens angry at you for repeatedly hammering the point that it should be done when you can see there is some resistance to it, the methods you propose, or the manner in which you express it? My guess is, that if Twoller was engaged in the process of evicting the illegals, and that process was practical and bore results that were relayed on this forum, we'd most likely be seeing a different type of attitude in everyone's postings, because as mentioned earlier, most want the illegals deported. But as everyone can see, there is a little disgust for posts made for the sole purpose of stirring up emotional reactions.
With that addressed, we also should be careful not to fall into the oppositions tactics of pulling the nazi card out on other posters. To our competition, the mere mention of deportation is enough to label you a cold hearted, hate mongering racist nazi. Some of those terms they mean, and some they just use, but most of us realize that enforcing the law is a necessary evil, and someone has to do it. So how do the ones that do sleep at night? Well, they know there is a principle to uphold, that's why. So they throw themselves into a mindset and get the job done. Sometimes we see that mindset become overly aggressive, and it's ok to remind someone tactfully that they might be losing perspective. But please try and remember that the greatest personal mental injury can come from those who lob insults of the racial or hate mongering caliber from within our own ranks.
In closing here, please remember when making commentary here of the type that might seem inflammatory and/or provoking in relation to our agenda, that those of us actively engaged in the pursuit of our agenda in a personal and public manner have to support, defend, or at least address what is written here during the course of our activities. Please don't complicate the already difficult task unneccessarily, and for little, or no rewards. In addition, remember that most of us here are harboring some sort of deep rooted grudges in relation to immigration, so there are bound to be some disrespectful attitudes slipping out occassionaly. A little sympathy for each other should be extended first, prior to any harsh rebuttal.
The thread will be closed for 24 hours. Please try a little more restraint when it re-opens.

There are two Save Our States. I came to realize this after I had been a member for about 6 weeks (back in '06).

There is the message board Save Our State and there is the real world SOS. The two overlap about 20%. In my experience, the former is commonly where the "trouble" or most pronounced extremism comes from. Usually there is a collection of people who post and are rarely or never seen at rallies and other functions. Their SOS existence is limited to the internet. On the rare occasions I've heard white supremacist sentiments or Anti-Semitism from my fellow border security advocates, it has come from folks who never show their faces, march down hostile streets, get behind police barricades, patrol a day labor site or stand in the rain waving signs at passing traffic.

Most people whose activism is limited to internet discussions are not extremists or embarrassments. But for as long as I can recall, there has always been a vocal minority of SOS folks who flame, engage in hate speech, mouth sentiments out-of-step with opinions of most SOS members, and generally take full advantage of the cocoon of anonymity that internet message boards offer.

I can recall people openly discussing potential alliances with skinheads when "fighting in the streets breaks out." I distinctly remember two individuals getting upset with things I wrote, and then reading posts about Jews only being loyal to "their own kind," not trusting "goyim," and using the immigration issue to "divide patriots." Further, the most vile anti-Hispanic rhetoric I've seen on our website (past and present) has always come from people I've never met.

Insofar as the dozens of events I've attended in So. California, I've never gotten so much as a whiff that the people with whom I was protesting possessed racial animosity, ethnic bigotry or had boiled the immigration debate down to a skin color contest. Border Raven, AmericanPatriot77, Ray and Robin, JeanfromFillmore, Ole Glory, Foothillpages.com, PochoPatriot, Lupe, Watchdog, OldPreach, GSBAmerica, Jalira, Weasel, Tim55, Borderwatch, Kingfish, TheBob ... hell, even Chelene. I know the people who have taken public stands and engaged in SOS activism. They're not racists. I've worked and appeared with these folks repeatedly. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The reality is that we live in a free expression driven country and tolerate most types of speech in our everyday lives and on our boards. Resultingly, a small percentage of it is going to be ugly and not reflect accurately upon the organization. If I thought any of the things described in the 4th paragraph (above) were accurate depictions of my cohorts on the streets, I'd have bailed out of SOS a long time ago.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The only reason I registered here at this forum is to discuss illegal immigration. I post at a lot of bulletin boards like this and the vast majority of other posters have always been anonymous. I live a long way from Southern California and I'm very hesitant to attend public demonstrations with people I do not know very, very well.

If the administrators have problems with people posting here who are not active on the streets, it would be very simple to insist on in person registration. Nobody could post who had not attended a rally or in some way contributed to SOS directly to the satisfaction of the administrators. This is entirely reasonable to me. I'm not trying to get away with anything. I found the site on the internet and that's the only association I am interested in. I don't care who the other posters are personally, only what you are willing to express as an opinion. I have seen too many people post on bulletin boards under assumed and false personalities. That's fine with me, as long as your intentions are benign or at least unconfrontational. Otherwise, you need to represent yourself as honestly as you can and show, at the very least, the integrity suggested for written correspondence. You can get away with a lot of weird parlor games in face to face relationships that you can never get away with in print.

It's easy to say a lot of things under the cloak of internet anonymity which would never be said face to face.

I also suspect that avatars such as of superheros and fantastic ferocious beasts and intergalactic super beings tend to belong belong to fat guys who haven't left the couch in ages.

I believe there are some things to keep in mind.

There are people who have no other life than to discredit any advocacy of immigration law enforcement. They will tirelessly search straw by straw through the whole haystack to find needle like "evidence" of racism, then blanket smear the whole group as though commentary by people who are anonymous "associates" (or faceless "members") in name only mandate organizational policy.

There are some real nuts out there amongst the open borders group, who's obsession with race far outstrips anything to be found among pro immigration law enforcement, and who tend towards violence. The SPLC will never call them on it, and LEOs have been known to let them do their thing on the street - all because of the deliberate smearing of pro immigration law enforcement advocates.

If someone runs their mouth in an offensive manner on the internet board, which I believe functions mainly to get the word out and as a recruitment tool, it makes those who faithfully go to protests look bad and subject to physical violence, as well as disgust and repel people who might otherwise participate on the behalf of SOS.

For obvious reasons, it's never wise to give your enemy a crate of live grenades.

In the past, on the old SOS, we discussed membership requirements. It ranged from regular attendance of SOS events (impractical for members not in So. Cal.), to the payment of dues (which I believe is the best), to both (impractical). Either way, this group needs both internet soldiers and foot soldiers to be effective. What we all should do, and I am pointing the finger at myself first, is scale back on some of the inflammatory rhetoric used against illegal aliens and our opponents.

Second, I do not think it is appropriate to allow posts that glorify KKK rallies on this board. One of the things that drew me to SOS in the first place was that leading the way was not only she who will not be named, but also Ted Hayes, Col. Al Valdez, Lupe Moreno, Frank Jorge, Sam Z. and other people of color. I saw this and instantly knew that this organization was not ethnocentric, but open to people of races, colors and ethnic groups that were opposed to the illegal invasion.

Third, I will not agree with everything you say, and I will voice my disagreement. However, I respect your right to say it (provided it is within the guidelines of this forum). I am not advocating political correctness, rather I think that we can be more civil. Simple as that.

Profiling the racists.

tea party activists, birthers, global-warming deniers and viewers of Fox News.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ice-bodyguards

There are two problems with this point of view. First, anyone at all who wants to, like me, can register on this forum. And also, you must be registered at this forum in order to read it at all. (The last time I checked, anyway.) And also, the tendency to distort the meaning of what people say is the strategy of the opposition. The problem is that many who make the most noise about representing SOS, also work the hardest to deliberately misinterpret what people say here.

As long as SOS itself is honest about representing itself and others clearly sympathetic, then it is best to ignore the criticisms and distortions coming from the illegal supporters. All they want is your attention, and if you give it to them, they win. They also win when people identified with SOS apply the same strategy. It is obvious that many here wish to dull outrage against the illegals and assume a tone more like the illegal supporters. It is not hard to see that given enough time and deference to these people, SOS will eventually come around to things like amnesty or other equivilants -- anything but aggressive enforcement against the simple presence of illegal immigrants and their enablers among legal immigrants as well.

Everyone knows that those most passionate about denouncing racism, for example, care the least about what racism actually is. They say they know what racism is and are not obliged to any explanation about what that is. And they get along perfectly well with real racists, who they need to prop up their shallow and corrupt poliitics.

No, you don't have to register just to read the forums. No one here wants to dull any outrage against illegals. Some of us here may wish to dull the rantings of people who rant only, or spend more time ranting and representing themselves as the the only ones with the true answers than getting out and ranting where it may really do some good.
Your post is not very inspirational.

Well, obviously, somewhere in there, you are talking about me and my posts. When have I ever represented myself as "the only one with the true answers"? I am, however, only too willing to defend my point of view against more than one other person who disagrees with me at the same time.

I'm sorry you don't find my post inspirational. I'll let you know when I am actually trying to be inspirational so that you may more properly judge my efforts.

You don't have to let anyone 'know' when you're doing anything, we can read exactly what you're doing. And this is the second time I will let you know that your posts are very close to crossing the line, very close. You mocked me when I warned you the last time, but I wasn't kidding or just wagging my finger, one more time you rant anything close to being racist I will put you in the restricted area. Now I hope I made myself clear enough.

We can read exactly what you are doing? I'm not mocking anyone. Quote me. Nothing I post is even close to being racist. If it was, you would quote me first and accuse me later and I certainly could quote many posters here who are openly racist even while opposing illegal immigration.

Look at this post here:

http://www.saveourstate.info/showthread.php?t=1291

Notice in this list of 32 questions, copied and pasted from a site with no reference or link to the original site, I altered the list so that no references were made to Mexicans. And I've said this before. It is possible to address Mexico's flagrant contempt for our laws and especially our immigration laws without using the word "Mexican" anywhere and so be completely innocent of any accusations of racism. Even though Mexican claims in the US of being a seperate race ("La Raza") are completely bogus anyway.

My posts are the complete opposite of racist and I defy anyone to quote me otherwise.

You can do whatever you want and will. I'm not changing my behavior. There is nothing to change and increasingly, nobody to talk to. I came here to talk about illegal immigration and the vast majority of posting here seems to be copy and pasted news items or petty back biting against other feeble opposition groups.

Ok, Twoller, I don't know what your experience is.

However, before the civil rights act, things were different that they are now. There were the tracks and one's place in relation to those tracks. That's the way it was then, they couldn't eat in the same restaurants as whites and all the other stuff "Latino Advocates" babble about as though it still were going on today.

In 1960, Elena's family went to visit relatives in other states. In Deming New Mexico, Elena and her relatives were forcibly ran back across the tracks just because the young cousins wanted some ice cream from a "white" establishment. In 2005, we ate breakfast in the same place, which had become a restaurant. No problems.

On the 1960 trip, some Border Patrol agents in Texas tore their car apart - merely because they were a car full of brown people.

About 2004 we visited some of my relatives in Texas. I expected the white people to have something to prove concerning a white man and a brown woman, but not a one batted an eye. To the contrary, it was the "Mexicans" who had the problem concerning the situation.

However, you carry on as though you live 50 years in the past, verbally resurrecting all that crap which for the most part is gone, but of which some of the older of the brown persuasion won't or can't let go of as well some of the impressionable youngsters who carry on as though it were their own experience.

And you aid those inclined towards those beliefs by making everyone here look like Klansmen.

Get a grip as to who is an American citizen with Latin American ancestry and who is an illegal from Latin America.

They aren't the same people.

I understand that it was not directed at me, nor was my response directed at you. I was taking the opportunity to criticize that particular point of view that has been expressed by others here at the forum and not just you.

Very powerful post here ilbegone!